Interview organised, designed and performed by Nickolaos Angelis
On this first interview by Pecunia et Bellum, we mentioned delicate political and geopolitical issues with Danny Albaaj, a former Syrian Diplomat who witnessed the modifications in Syria first hand. We word that the views or calculations expressed by the interviewee don’t in any means mirror the opinions of the Pecunia et Bellum crew members, individually or collectively.
Sure, so we could start with the questions now, so typically might you say just a few issues about you, like, how would you outline your profession to date?
I’m a Political Science and Public Administration graduate. That is my educational background. I’ve a Grasp’s diploma in Diplomacy and Worldwide Relations. I labored in a number of fields, primarily educating for some time and from 2006 to 2009. I joined the Syrian international service in 2007 and I turned a diplomat, the place I had one yr of expertise within the Worldwide Organizations Division again within the capital, Damascus, then I used to be promoted to be the Chief Cupboard of the Deputy Overseas Minister for about 2 years. Then my first publish was in Geneva, and the Syrian Mission to the United Nations Workplace in Geneva in 2010. Two years later, after the Syrian Revolution in, 2012 I defected towards the Regime and I went publicly criticizing the best way that they had been dealing with the demonstrations – again then peaceable demonstrations – and shortly after that I attempted to assist a number of the Syrian Opposition in a means so I joined a few of them, in Turkey, making an attempt to formulate what was then generally known as the Interim Authorities, and after that I simply turned a Fellow at Omran Analysis, Heart for Strategic Research as effectively, as now I’m doing the advocacy for SCM which is the Syrian Heart for Media and Freedom of Expression.
So that you had been opposed from the beginning , it’s not like, one thing particular occurred that prompted that shift that you just made?
There was nothing occurring actually at first. If you happen to watch the occasions throughout the timeline of the Arab Spring, Tunisia and in Egypt, change was there and we had been hoping that this transformation would attain Syria. I used to be stunned truly with the extent of violence that the authorities of Syria, adopted in the direction of the peaceable demonstrations. In order that was the truth that made me clearly take aspect with the demonstrations. It’s like a wave – you’ve seen it in Egypt, you’ve seen it in Tunisia. You’ve seen that when Qaddafi determined to go viciously towards the demonstrators what occurred. Even in my wildest ideas I by no means thought that the Syrian Authorities would go so far as killing civilians on the road.
Did taking the aspect of the protesters ever make you assume that you just had been towards your personal nation ?
In no way, it’s with the folks. It’s precisely the other. From the very first demonstration that came about in Damascus , three of my shut buddies had been mainly arrested and tortured. I’ve seen all of the replies from the federal government, as a result of I used to be in Geneva and we had been speculated to take care of all of the Worldwide human rights issues. I’ve seen that the regime was mendacity , so it wasn’t onerous to appreciate that actuality is completely different from what the federal government is claiming. And once more, it’s a wave, it was everywhere in the Arab world. It’s not like we’ve been residing in very democratic, liberal open societies, the place all of the sudden the folks began to riot. It was a transparent demand, let or not it’s in Egypt, let or not it’s in Yemen, let or not it’s in Tunisia, let or not it’s in Bahrain, let or not it’s in Syria, let or not it’s in wherever, folks had been demonstrating as a result of they wished higher political regimes, extra freedoms and higher requirements of residing. We’re used to this. We had been simply ready for the second.
Some Youtubers crossed the Syrian borders just a few months in the past they usually just about tried to point out a picture of a standard nation. Was it a propagandistic trick from the regime to be able to whitewash Assad or is there truly a level of normality in Syria at present?
Yeah, “very regular”, to the extent that the federal government requested folks to remain dwelling, that they gave 15 days off they usually closed colleges, that persons are dying from starvation and that Cholera is in all places, that the federal government can’t management greater than 20%, in actuality of Syria, that the Russians and the Iranians are having the higher hand in each choice the federal government makes. No matter propaganda might be put by a Youtuber right here, or there and even interviews with officers every so often, doesn’t cowl the truth. Syria adopted 3 days in the past (December 7), the bottom -ever- in historical past, Annual Finances; 5 Billion USD. It’s ridiculous. And in the event that they declare that issues are regular it’s very fascinating to see how a rustic like Syria can survive with a $5 billion finances. So in fact, nothing is regular.
What are your feedback on the current scandal that occurred with the WHO head in Damascus?
WHO has labored on disaster stage thrice in Syria. The primary time was when Polio began to go within the north and northeast, the place vaccinations weren’t there. It was the primary time that WHO mainly helped by making an attempt via the Opposition factions. Again then the Interim Authorities and the areas underneath the management of the opposition had been used to distribute the Polio vaccinations, as a result of Polio after being eradicated internationally, got here again in Syria, as a result of the vaccination was not there.
However this was about early 2014. The second time WHO labored in Syria was throughout Covid, which was everywhere in the space. Now it’s the third time that they’re working, as a result of there may be Cholera. WHO has at all times been there, now the scandal that got here up with the Head of their Workplace and Damascus receiving bribes is one thing that WHO has to take care of and examine themselves. Now we’ll wait to see what is going to come out. I wouldn’t be stunned if there may be corruption. In fact the Syrian authorities is corrupted, and they’re making an attempt to deprave everyone round them, so getting some cash benefiting their very own folks on the expense of worldwide organizations, is just not one thing new. This could be left to the WHO, to lastly determine how they’d proceed. However the federal government wouldn’t be -in any way- perceived in any higher place, they’re at all times corrupt, they’re making the most of any scenario, be it an epidemic contained in the nation or be it a global funding coming to assist the folks, they’d put it there of their pockets, reasonably than actually let it go to those in want. It’s at all times the identical, relating to humanitarian help. Most of it finally ends up available in the market offered after the officers put their hand on it, after which resell it.
Do you see a hyperlink right here between a well being disaster like COVID-19, and Cholera with the oppressive measures taken by the federal government in the direction of the anti-regime organizations in Syria?
They don’t actually need such an excuse. They’re killing folks. Do they actually need an excuse for doing that? Do they want an epidemic to say “Oh, we’re killing and oppressing extra folks”? The regime has reached the purpose the place they don’t care since there is no such thing as a accountability for the way they act.
Is there, any likelihood, that Syria, works as a cartel state for Medication that makes cash from buying and selling the amphetamine-type stimulant Captagon capsules?
It’s working like this already, and it’s on the very best stage doable. From Bassar (Al Assad) and on, that is the primary international foreign money earnings supply for them to outlive. What follows are the treatments and the transfers, from the Syrian Diaspora to their households in Syria. The economic system in Syria is completely collapsing. There’s no supply of onerous foreign money in anyway. Subsequently they’ve been utilizing medication (trafficking) earlier than, truly since ages. Nonetheless, it was extra underneath management and used for political causes, mainly to fund the covert operations of the Intelligence Providers and their ally Hezbollah. Now that they’re in want they simply went on exploiting and utilizing it as a supply. So, sure Syria is sadly a Cartel run by the Assad household.
The impression is rising that there’s a steadily rising diploma of convergence between the Assad regime and the opposite -until lately hostile- Arab states like Qatar , together with the group of Hamas. How did that come up and does it have the stable foundation for a future reconciliation?
Probably not. With Hamas it’s completely different. What they’re (the regime) making an attempt to do at all times is to attempt to current themselves as the one companion, so to talk, in Syria, that they’re in management, that they will take into accounts the pursuits of different nations and of different non-state actors. With Hamas it’s historic since they’ve at all times been, like buddies and transferring and shifting, after which -with a transparent push and stress from Iran- Hamas normalized the relations with the Regime . They’re all understanding, that so long as they’re preventing Israel, there may be one enemy collectively, so the enemy, of my enemy is my good friend, subsequently it’s higher to be in a very good relationship with the regime.
For us, and the Opposition, we see it as a failure of Political Islam to current once more, any type of moral and good governance mannequin. This was one of many fundamental explanation why the Syrian Revolution shifted from its fundamental goals, all of the political Islam interference made the shift in the direction of Jihadism, and Extremism and so forth and so forth, and now we have seen the way it’s reached us, whereas when it comes to Qatar, and different states, I consider it is going to take time. It’s clear to see if there’s an actual change in positions and in relations with the regime. The steps had been taken ahead extra by the Emirates and by Bahrain, from the Gulf States, Egypt and others from different States. However I nonetheless see a protracted technique to go. It’s not like by tomorrow the whole lot will probably be normalized. The regime is making an attempt for certain. Now, the response from the Worldwide group varies based on every nation’s curiosity. I additionally see clearly that there’s a clear resistance from the Individuals to have any type of such a normalization course of, occurring with the regime and not using a clear progress on the peace course of, in order that they at all times curb some states to open up and have relations with the regime.
We hear additionally every so often about Turkey, that they should have talks with the regime, that it would occur that there can be a gathering, even between Erdogan and Assad, however I nonetheless consider that that is lengthy pictures, and it’s principally utilized in Turkey, as I see it, for inside use for the approaching elections, reasonably than for actual strategic functions. We don’t must neglect additionally the primary function of the Russians on this sense, the place they’re additionally an ally of the Syrian regime, serving to or pushing different states to normalize their relationship with it.
And because you talked about Turkey, how would you assess its total function within the Syrian Struggle from the Euphrates Defend to the Olive Department operation and the occupation of Northern Syria ?
It’s an up and down factor, I can’t say there was a secure clear minimize transfer, or let’s say line, that the Turkish Overseas Coverage adopted via the Syrian case from day one to at present. If we bear in mind in the beginning they had been mainly the buddies of Bashar they usually tried again then when Davutoglu was the Overseas Affairs Minister, to mediate, and to carry up plenty of options, the place demonstrations might have stopped and a few reforms might have taken place, and they might help Syria.
This was performed mutually, with them and Qatar, on the identical place. The modifications contained in the Turkish political system, particularly after the Coup try, and with the revision of the Structure, with the transfer of all this political acquire, we see that every so often President Erdogan and his crew give -I wouldn’t name it contradictory- however let’s say, completely different indications about how they wish to take care of with Syria. As regards the Turkish function, some folks, some analysts say that it was supportive, Turkey hosted greater than 3 million Syrians inside Turkey, serving to them as refugees and in addition serving to the Opposition. Turkey remains to be the one nation that hosts the Etilaf, which is the Nationwide Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, however on the identical time Turkey has direct navy actions in Syria.
Turkey has at all times seen PKK as a risk to its nationwide safety, each time PKK jumps into their face they are going to take excessive measures and this isn’t going to alter. It’s clear that the Syrian regime knew that. Beforehand, they (Syrian regime) had been internet hosting Öcalan for some time, after which, after the disaster, with the clear risk of Turkey to invade there was one other settlement that was signed between Syria and Turkey to cooperate towards PKK fighters and leaders. Syrians performed it effectively as they benefited most from Turkey, with making a gift of the PKK Card with the rebellion setting in Syria and all of the modifications they introduced again PKK to the sport making an attempt to assist them. So PKK was for a very long time a good friend and ally of the Syrian Regime however once more, sadly it’s a card that’s being performed by a number of gamers. Let or not it’s the Individuals, the Turks, the Syrians, one thing very unlucky for the Kurdish folks to be handled by one faction which may be very radical and at a sure level it might not even characterize all of the Kurdish inhabitants in Syria. Thus, the Turkish authorities would act to be able to defend its nationwide safety. Typically it’s understood that navy actions must happen, particularly when there’s no authorities in Syria to take care of. And another instances, as now, like they offer this indication, that possibly intelligence and safety cooperation with the regime, may assist to not result in main navy actions happening.
You wrote and supported the view about ‘the potential of the creation of a “triangle of stability” between Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia’ within the area. How does the Ukrainian Struggle, would you say, have an effect on the dynamics of the area?
I used to be truly hoping that such a triangle of stability would work. Traditionally, the area is an unstable area. If you happen to take a look at the Center East, within the final 100 years, there have been greater than 100 conflicts, let or not it’s worldwide, let or not it’s home, let or not it’s cross-border and to attain stability it takes many parts. One in every of these is that once we noticed there was very shut cooperation between Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, conflicts within the area weren’t prevented, nonetheless, a minimum of there was containment. Now with Syria out of this equation I hoped that possibly Turkey, as a significant one, might play such a job by changing Syria on this triangle. Now this triangle once more, is just not very secure per se. Nonetheless such cooperation would truly ease down the strain, assist once more comprise any battle if it takes place. This was my hope. There have been indications the place Egypt and Saudi Arabia introduced again the relations with Turkey and the latter additionally took some opening steps in the direction of each nations. But it surely didn’t crystallize or develop in the direction of this triangle. So it’s not there.
Now concerning the warfare in Ukraine and the way it impacts that. It’s a global issue that affects one of many worldwide gamers, which is clearly Russia primarily within the area, however it isn’t actually instantly related to the stabilization within the area. So, Russia has not been taking part in a job, the place it’s speculated to be to stabilize. It’s extra about retaining the regime and retaining its pursuits protected.
However these as navy steps and actions aren’t actually crystallized once more, or developed to their full extent. Perhaps if Russia hadn’t gone into warfare in Ukraine, its function might have been performed higher and the potential of having a stabilized area might have been elevated. Nonetheless, the Russians now are busy, so their function within the area is questionable with a giant query; is it going to acquire that? What can be the result based on the developments of the Struggle in Ukraine? Are the troops going to be moved from Syria exterior again into Russia? And what if there’s this vacuum occurring, might such a triangle of stabilization work? May Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey cooperate, to say “Οkay, we will fill that vacuum that will happen with the Russian withdrawal”? It’s not clear.
Which is the precise collaboration between Russia and Syria within the battlefield of Ukraine and what function does Wagner Group play in Syria, at present?
It’s all one. Wagner might appear like a personal firm, but it surely’s a transparent authorities agent so it’s a transparent minimize choice of Russian assets about the place it might be deployed, and the place it might be principally used. I see clearly the necessity now in Ukraine, for the presence of Wagner. Sure, which means withdrawal, however not solely from Syria that may additionally imply withdrawal of Wagner operations everywhere in the world, as a result of they’re additionally lively, in Africa, Libya, so for certain the scenario that Russia has put itself in now by invading Ukraine has difficult all of the issues, and hindered their potential to affect some place else. It will go on so long as the Struggle in Ukraine is there, so we see a transparent final result of that; what we’re seeing now’s that there are much less and fewer instruments for Russia to affect worldwide coverage, together with the Center East in fact.
And in regards to the Muslim Brotherhood, a key political group for the area , do you see that there’s any change for its affect as effectively, or is it one thing that’s changing into extra fragmented.
Political Islam, generally, in Syria, and within the area, has misplaced harshly. The best way they dominated Egypt, that push again, I imply, I didn’t want for that change to occur. I hoped that they’d keep in energy, after which they’d get replaced by a democratic motion, the place folks would vote them out, the identical means it occurred in Morocco, for instance the place Muslim Brotherhood dominated for just a few phrases, after which folks simply merely voted them out as a result of they couldn’t do something. I hoped for such a state of affairs in Egypt. I perceive that possibly it was wanted for the Egyptian military to maneuver the best way it did however anyway, what I’m saying is seeing how Muslim Brotherhood handled all of the uprisings, how they led and the way they had been hungry for authority reasonably than reforms, distanced themselves from actual democracy, actual change and made them look as one other dictatorship, that simply desires to exchange those that had been in energy earlier than.
So it wasn’t about having a greater life for the folks, it was principally about : “If the military is ruling, why not us?” And “if they’re a dictatorship possibly our dictatorship mannequin might work”, and that mainly distanced them from everyone, together with the younger era, together with the Opposition factions, together with additionally their allies, let or not it’s regional, or worldwide. That mannequin failed, failed by all features. It’s as much as them now to really provide you with with modifications and political speech, and their very own beliefs in their very own requirements, and their very own demand so truly show to the folks once more, that they’re pro-democratic, and that they’re for democracy, as it’s the solely means everyone can coexist and compete one another politically via packages, via higher insurance policies.
Will this occur? I don’t see it now, as a result of there’s no setting for such issues to develop. Nonetheless, the ball is of their courtroom, to characterize a program and to speak to the plenty, addressing their wants and having a transparent assurance that democracy is what they need. Apart from, they’d be merely the opposite face of the navy dictators.
As a former consultant of Syria within the United Nations Human Rights Council, how do you assess the dealing with of current occasions in Ukraine? Do you see any enhancements relating to the insurance policies that they’re making an attempt to implement as a company, generally? Is the Council itself studying from the previous occasions?
Each UN physique is actually pushed by its members – by the Member States. It’s all concerning the insurance policies of the nations and so long as that is the case, we’d solely see, sadly, double requirements, politicizing of affairs, like Human Rights which shouldn’t be politicized, politicizing of Humanitarian Assist that also needs to not be politicized. Now relating to studying, I hope nations are studying from these experiences, I hope to see that if it was in the beginning of a technique to depoliticise human rights, then sure, possibly there’s a technique to go for it.
The Human Rights Council particularly has no tooth, it might solely put studies, examine, and put it within the fingers of the Safety Council which is the primary Physique of the United Nations to take any motion after which it’s the identical case all time and again. That is politicization, it’s the curiosity of the 5 Everlasting Members that govern all of the Worldwide Neighborhood. That doesn’t imply that it doesn’t have a very good function to play. If we glance now in Syria and Israel, they’re the 2 members of the Basic Meeting that mainly have worldwide mechanisms on them to analyze their actions, to go after the gross human rights violations that they’re perpetrating , and each are protected by a giant nation Israelis are protected by the US, the Syrians are protected by the Russians.
So possibly at a sure level nations would look, and say “Okay, we could must cease defending perpetrators, now we have to carry justice in a method or one other”. Worldwide Legal Regulation works on people, it doesn’t criminalize the system, or governments.
So possibly if we will lock down or cease one worldwide prison or worldwide gross human rights violator and finish impunity, it might be good for everyone and we’d not have reached a spot the place what’s occurring in Ukraine is occurring.
As a result of in the event you cease this stuff early and if folks know that there’s accountability and penalties for such measures, then we’d not go that far, so it’s all linked. Sure, I hope they’re studying and naturally they’re studying however it might at all times come again to politics and the curiosity of every nation the place possibly the entire thought of the United Nations and its Our bodies might be oriented to what might be completed higher so as to not permit such gross violations and atrocities to happen.
Associated
